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There’s a lot of ambivalence about eating fat.
For generations, doctors and other practitioners demonized fat for causing all kinds of health problems. We want to shine some light on how fat is not only good for us, but absolutely necessary. And, as we always say, it’s not just about this one particular nutrient–we need to look at the person eating it as a whole. Listen to our take on fat.
Transcript of Should You Fear Fat podcast
Edited for clarity
Wendy 00:02
We’re so glad you’re here with us today. We’re going on a journey to talk about fat. So, for over 35 years, our health system and our government declared all fat as bad and to remove it from our daily lives, and they all went a little crazy. Literally. No more brain fuel, right? It’s fat for the brain, cognitive health, all the absorption of vitamins and minerals and longevity and joint health.
Debbie 00:30
Yeah, we need that!
Wendy 00:33
We’re fat phobic! So, let’s get past that. That’s like, we’ve outgrown that.
Debbie 00:39
Yeah, we’ve got to get past that. Because we, first of all, we don’t want to throw a whole group of foods out. You know. We don’t.
Wendy 00:45
No! we don’t–that’s silliness. And, you know, in this podcast, we’re not gonna be talking about cholesterol. But there’s a direct, you know, connection. And again, history. Yep. With fat and cholesterol. So, stay tuned for part two. And we’re going to take a deeper dive into cholesterol and all the reasons why we need healthy cholesterol and healthy numbers.
Debbie 01:06
Yep. Because we have clients that come to us who aren’t eating fat.
Wendy 01:11
Yeah, they come to us eating fat-free everything.
Debbie 01:15
Yeah, or cutting back a lot on fat because someone told them to.
Wendy 01:19
Who might that someone be? And we want to address it because our understanding of nutrition, “ours,” meaning the collective industry, has changed over time. And fat used to be a no. And I’ve had conversations with people 10, 20 years older than we are who are still afraid of fat because of their heart. And their longevity. And we want to dispel some of those old stories and talk fat with you.
Debbie 01:51
Yeah. Because what I’m finding is sometimes clients come to me with their bloodwork that they’ve gotten, right, and they see numbers that scare them, or that their doctors or practitioners have told them are scary. And then they cut back on fat. And a lot of times, those practitioners aren’t telling them the whole story.
Wendy 02:14
Yeah, you want to look at the whole person, the whole story, everything that they’re eating everything that they’re doing, right? Their stress level, their sleep. We’re a whole picture. We are not just fat.
Debbie 02:28
And if you know us–if you follow us, that’s no news to you. You know, so we can’t just isolate one nutrient and demonize it or excel it. It’s not about that–it’s about your whole life and how you live your life, not just the nutrients you put in your body.
Wendy 02:44
Yeah. It’s also not just one meal. It’s our consecutive meals over time. Done consistently, right? It’s not the one or two celebrations. So let’s talk fat.
Debbie 03:01
Yeah, we’re diving into fat.
Wendy 03:03
We’ll start with the disclaimer, of course, that everyone’s unique. And we offer these podcasts based on our experience and our own research. So, we really encourage people to explore what works for you as an individual. And we do encourage you to talk to your doctor. And if there’s controversial information, or you don’t feel like your doctor is supporting you in the same way that you’d like, find a new doctor. Find someone who speaks your language, who has a deep respect for you exploring your healthy choices.
Debbie 03:32
Right. And we’re gonna say this message more than once, but we want you to question everything and question, everyone, including us. You know, we’ve been going back and listening to a lot of our podcasts and reading some of this stuff we’ve written before. And generally, we like what we’ve done. But there have been a few times that we’ve caught some things that we’ve changed our minds about because of new information, or just us learning from ourselves or from our clients. So, always question everything.
Wendy 04:01
So here we are, we want to talk about reversing the fear of fat. That’s one of our biggest takeaways.
Debbie 04:07
Yeah, for sure. Because we don’t want you to stop eating fat. We need fat.
Wendy 04:11
We need fat. It’s an energy source. And it supports brain cognition, and it helps us absorb all the vitamins and the minerals that are in all the other rainbow of food choices. We need fat on that salad.
Debbie 04:27
Fat helps us absorb vitamin A, vitamin E, vitamin D, and vitamin K. I didn’t say that in alphabetical order, but it doesn’t really matter.
Wendy 04:37
A D, E and K. And the minerals also need essential fatty acids. You know, these are the ones our body can’t make. Right?
Debbie 04:47
Right. That’s what makes them the “essential” fatty acids.
Wendy 04:50
Exactly. So, you need fat to absorb these vitamins.
Debbie 04:52
Right, and nutrients. What else fat does is in our bodies. I mean, people will need to realize what’s going on. Because before we did research about fat all these years ago, we didn’t, we couldn’t have told you if you said, “what does this fat do for us,” right? You know, it’s a matter of knowing but we need it to help build our cell membranes. Fat is around all of our cells, which is really important to protect our cells and to keep our cells nice and fluffy.
Wendy 05:18
Yeah, we want them plump. We don’t want to have raisin-y cells. So it also helps us absorb water, if they’re all wrinkly, the water can’t go through our cells.
Debbie 05:29
Exactly. So it’s the integrity of our cells that it helps, and what surrounds our nerves and helps our nerves use the electricity that we need in our body, too, fat helps us with that.
Wendy 05:40
It’s essential for blood clotting, for muscle movement. It’s a great mitigator for inflammation. And inflammation, right, is the root causes of our dis-ease. So, you go fat-free, and you might create additional inflammation in your body. And you’re actually reversing exactly what your body aches for.
Debbie 06:05
Yeah, inflammation is huge in our modern society. And if we can do anything to reduce inflammation, it’s so important. But fat also, aside from inflammation, it also helps insulate our bodies–keeps us warm, and it keeps our organs protected. So, that’s like, those are huge jobs that fat does. And if you’re eliminating fat from your diet, and having very little, a lot of these things are compromised.
Wendy 06:31
So, as we were doing research on the podcast, we dug into some of our favorite authors and found some old data around the harm, quote, unquote, of saturated fat. And it made us wince. We looked at our bookshelves, and we’re like, oh, that’s only, you know, 10-15 years old. And it’s already old. So, it’s really interesting how quickly, you know, science is catching up to ourselves.
Debbie 06:57
Right. Well, we graduated from IIN [Institute for Integrative Nutrition] 13 years ago. And all the books that we bought at that time, and that we got through the program that we’ve kept on our shelves, and we’ve referred to, we’re talking about those books. And, I mean, we don’t want to throw them out, in a sense, they do have some good information, but so much of it is outdated already. And even online, we’ve come across things, and you have to look at the dates, because sometimes there’s information on there that’s 10 years old, that really, nutrition is accelerating so quickly. We’re in the infancy of the science of nutrition.
Wendy 07:35
Well, besides–Yes. And, it’s very trendy, right? Nutrition is very trendy, and what’s the latest thing, the fastest quickest thing that I could do to help me look better, right? And we’re about looking, feeling and performing your best. It’s not just about the looks, you really have to go to the mindset around, you know, how we’re walking around.
Debbie 07:58
Right. Yeah. So, beware of trends when it comes to nutrition, for sure.
Wendy 08:03
So, the one thing everyone agrees on, and it’s still good science, and it’s still really helpful information is that trans-fat is not healthy in any way. Right? So, you have more control of that than you know, and so we advise people to completely eliminate that from their diet.
Debbie 08:25
Yeah. And I think most people know that that idea of trans-fat is not healthy. But what people don’t realize is all the things that trans-fats are in, and how they get around it, because they don’t have to report it in on the label if it comes under one gram per serving.
Wendy 08:43
Per serving! So, what did they do? They just reduced the serving size, right? So instead of 10 crackers, you can only have six, right? For example, right?
Debbie 08:52
So now it’s half a gram of trans fat. And they can say zero grams trans-fats, right? So, be really, really very wary. And here’s the thing. Trans-fats are in processed foods.
Wendy 09:04
Yeah. And it’s labeled in the ingredients. So, they still have to put it in the ingredients label. So, you skip that white and black little square with, you know, all the protein and sugars and trans-fats and go right to the ingredient list.
Debbie 09:19
And what is the ingredient? Because it doesn’t say trans-fat?
Wendy 09:21
No, it doesn’t. So, there’s another tricky industry. Right? It’s partially hydrogenated oil.
Debbie 09:27
Right. Look for that word–“hydrogenated” Yep.
Wendy 09:30
Yeah. And so, it’s basically taking a liquid and putting it into a solid. And so, it’s really easy for manufacturers to use. It’s very cheap. Highly processed. And it’s very damaging to our body.
Debbie 09:43
Right. They make it to make it shelf stable so it can sit on store shelves indefinitely.
Wendy 09:50
So, this is what’s happening to us. Yeah, except we’re not indefinite.
Debbie 09:53
And so, what it’s doing is making those fats solid. And that’s what happens in our arteries and that’s why trans-fats are dangerous. Because it clogs our arteries. It stops them up more than any other kind of fat. And so it can cause heart disease faster and more efficiently than any other fat.
Wendy 10:14
So, a direct link between eating excessive trans-fat and heart attacks and death.
Debbie 10:21
That’s right. So, what is it in?
Wendy 10:23
It’s in peanut butter. People eat peanut butter like crazy.
Debbie 10:27
And not necessarily the natural peanut butter.
Wendy 10:29
That’s right. If it just says peanuts and salt. You’re good. You’re good to go. Yep. But read that label. Because where there’s partially hydrogenated oil. There’s probably sugar as well.
Debbie 10:39
It’s also in syrups. It’s in those coffee creamers. It’s in lots of dressings.
Wendy 10:48
Yeah, and you wouldn’t think–why? Why do they need to put that into dressing? Yeah, again, shelf stable. Cookies, French fries . . .
Debbie 10:58
Pastries, baked goods, a lot of baked goods, like those Entenmanns, not to bash any brands, but those kinds of things that you find on the shelf that are usually at the end of the shelves that you see very first, right? When you walk into the store. Those are all the trans fats. Spray oils!
Wendy 11:13
Ah, spray oils as well.
Debbie 11:15
Yeah. So, one of the things that I want to say about this is that some people do well with higher fat diets than other people do. And we know from our research and in the past, and even you can find it today, is that people from northern climates, especially if they’re from Arctic climates, tend to have a lot of fat, saturated fat, and their bodies do really well with it. And because they need it, and it’s a different lifestyle. Maybe if you’re from the tropics, your body doesn’t do as well with high fat content. So, it’s so individual, it’s so unique. You have to know your own body and what works for you knowing how you feel. You’re an individual.
Wendy 11:53
Bingo. Yeah, just to riff on the science just a little bit more. And our understanding, one of the people we follow is Dr. Mark Hyman. You might recognize that name. He’s all the “Ultra Metabolism,” “Ultra Brain Health” and “The Blood Sugar Solution” and “Ultra Mind Solution.” And his original way of eating was the Standard American Diet. And then he had some serious illness and autoimmune disease, and it crippled him, and it crippled his business. And he did some deep diving into food, and what food, how food can help us heal and be vital. And so, he changed his story. And it’s just a really interesting story about how he got into functional medicine. And so, know that some doctors just don’t know, they aren’t up on the science, and they aren’t taking a deep dive.
Debbie 12:49
Yeah, generally, medical schools, especially in the past, do not talk a whole lot about nutrition. And I hope that’s changing now. But you know, doctors who’ve been around for a little while may not have a lot of information about nutrition. And it depends on them as individuals and their training and how much they’ve educated themselves now. So again, question–you’ve got to keep questioning!
Wendy 13:13
Another person that we have read and done some research with is Dr. David Kessler, and he wrote a book about the “End of Overeating.” And this idea, we want to talk about satiety and fat and how we process the three different food groups: the proteins, the fats, and the carbs.
Debbie 13:34
Those are all macronutrients, and they do have different satiety for us, right? Because our body processes them differently, right? So, fat is often the most satiating macronutrient.
Wendy 13:49
Yes. But . . . It actually slowly releases from the body. So, it takes longer for our body to realize we’re full when we eat fat. That’s why you can go through a whole bag of potato chips and still be hungry. But then, you know, a half an hour–hour later, you’re like, Oh!
Debbie 14:14
Everyone knows that feeling.
Wendy 14:15
So, with that in mind, protein really is the most immediately satiating of the macronutrients.
Debbie 14:23
Right. And carbs or sugars are the least satiating. Most people know that protein is the most satiating macronutrient and it empties from the stomach at a pretty slow pace–at about four calories a minute. And protein reduces our hunger and makes it easier for us to kind of not eat so much in a way, and sugars are–simple sugars are the least satiating, and they empty from the stomach at a rate of about 10 calories a minute. So, we typically satisfied hunger with them, but it only lasts about an hour.
Wendy 15:00
That’s why we get so hungry after a sweet treat in the middle of the afternoon, have a cookie or something.
Debbie 15:05
It’s a high caloric content too. Yeah, so it makes us eat a lot more. Fat is kind of a different story. It’s a little bit more complex. It empties from the stomach at just two calories a minute. And increases satiety. But the body processes these signals so slowly, so that we often eat high fat foods without feeling full. And before we know it, we feel not so good, because it’s too much of it.
Wendy 15:35
And this is the fat paradox. Yeah, this is how we eat too much fat. That’s right, easily, right. So curious, it’s good to know.
Debbie 15:44
It is good to know. And it’s not necessarily the numbers that you need to know–just to know that we process the fat in our body, in our mind slowly, and so we tend to overeat it. So, take your time. But, you know, also know that processed food companies combine these three things. Yeah, in a science lab, you know, the fat, the sugar and the salt, especially, and make it such a high reward value that it tastes so good that we often over eat it.
Wendy 16:14
And it tastes so good. They’ve really hijacked our taste buds. Yeah, like that’s not real. No, it’s not. And and then we go and bite into an apple and are kind of disappointed because it’s not sweet enough. Right. So, this is what we do as health coaches is help retrain our tastebuds.
Debbie 16:33
Yeah. train them into recognizing real food, you know, food that’s not highly processed food that our body recognizes as food. And nutritious.
Wendy 16:44
Because literally, we are what we eat, right? We are–we turn into all that food that comes into us into our cells in our blood and our skin and our hair. And our brain.
Debbie 16:56
And the other thing, too, to think about is that, when you eat real foods that are not highly processed– it’s kind of hard to overeat, you know–our bodies–we don’t necessarily want to overeat those foods, you know, because it’s not like this crazy flavored stuff that makes us grab more and everything else. It’s more mild, I guess you’d say, than that. And when we start to recognize that, and it’s delicious, and we recognize them as delicious, we don’t tend to overeat those foods.
Wendy 17:30
So let’s talk a little bit more about certain kinds of oils and fats. Let’s go to our pantry.
Debbie 17:40
Well, I know what’s in my pantry always is extra virgin olive oil. Always. That’s, sort of, our number one favorite oil or fat. Oil, fat. Same thing. Because it’s highly nutritious. And it’s delicious. It’s got a big bang for its buck too. And extra virgin olive oil means that it’s pressed once.
Wendy 18:06
And bottled within 24 hours. And it’s cold pressed. So, what else do you have? I have coconut oil.
Debbie 18:12
I do too–coconut oil. I have ghee.
Wendy 18:14
Ghee, yum.
Debbie 18:16
Yep. And avocado oil.
Wendy 18:18
And I do have some sesame oil in my refrigerator.
Debbie 18:23
Yes, me too.
Wendy 18:24
And I think that’s it. Those are the only oils that I have in my house. And I cook everything with those. I don’t need any other oil.
Debbie 18:33
No, you really don’t–to do all kinds of cooking from high heat cooking to just light sauteing–those cover pretty much the gamut.
Wendy 18:42
And just raw in salad dressing and to top roasted vegetables after they’ve roasted right?
Debbie 18:49
Yeah. So I guess if you were to ask us what oils should you have? Those would be the recommendations. And here’s the other thing is that we would recommend that you get small bottles of those things, right? You know, we don’t want those oils sitting around for very long. And we want them to be put in dark, cool places.
Wendy 19:09
And we want it to be an amber glass bottles.
Debbie 19:12
Yes. No clear glass. You know, that’s the best way. You know, it’s tempting to get those huge bottles, especially because they tend to be cheaper and you get them at the big box stores. But they tend to sit around.
Wendy 19:25
And then they don’t taste good. And then your meal doesn’t taste good. And you wonder why it tastes better at the restaurant.
Debbie 19:32
Yeah. There’s lots of reasons for that. But to be honest with you, a lot of those oils, especially the ones we didn’t mention that a lot of people may have in their cabinets. They are fragile. They become inflammatory when they’re exposed to heat. And they are oxidated.
Wendy 19:51
It takes so much to process some of these oils like corn oil and soy oil and peanut oil–it just takes an exorbitant amount of solvents and heat to get it to a palatable state. And so, it’s basically denaturing the food completely for our convenience.
Debbie 20:10
Just think about those oils like the canola, the sunflower, the safflower. And the reason that they’re highly processed is because to extract oil from them, it’s hard. You know, think about coconuts–they are really oily, you know, olives are really oily.
Wendy 20:26
Smash them and you get the oil.
Debbie 20:28
Exactly, but these other kinds–think about what they are. Hopefully, you can even picture what they are. I don’t know if you can when it comes to canola oil, and safflower. I don’t know what those look like. But anyway, it’s hard to get oils out of them. They need solvents; they need a process, lots of processes, to make it into the oil that turns into the bottle. So, think about that. That’s already a highly processed thing. And then a lot of those oils are in highly processed foods. So, it’s like you’re getting triple processed foods.
Wendy 21:00
Yeah. These oils you just talked about, they aren’t prized for their phytonutrient value.
Debbie 21:05
No, they’re not.
Wendy 21:06
No, no one’s dipping crusty French bread in canola or safflower oil. They aren’t doing tastings. You know, none of these are at gourmet oil shops, right? Yeah. And, just think of the logic of tasting it straight from the bottle. Is it yummy? And why use it?
Debbie 21:28
Yeah. It’s not necessary. They really aren’t necessary to use.
Wendy 21:32
We do talk about fats in our cookbook Nourish–a Community Supported Cookbook. And we go into a little bit more detail about these oils and some of the, you know, PUFAs and the monounsaturated and polys–we talk a little bit more about that in more detail. But for the average person who’s looking for recommendations in their kitchen, those are the oils that we recommend to go for.
Debbie 21:54
Absolutely. We’re not afraid of butter either.
Wendy 21:57
Ah, yes, we have butter. Oh, but it’s organic. And why organic? Because organic and grass finished butter has more omega 3s.
Debbie 22:11
And it tastes better.
Wendy 22:13
And it tastes really yummy.
Debbie 22:15
So, if you don’t care about all the health benefits and all that– it just tastes better. So, yes, we recommend butter. And of course, as we said, with fat, we want to respect fat. We don’t need much of it, we really don’t need much. It’s a high satiety. So, respect fat– don’t have a whole lot of it, but have it, and enjoy it. It’s just one of those things that you don’t want to have too much of. And remember that your body processes it slowly. So have a little bit and wait a while. And if you still want more, then have a little bit more after that. So, also remember a couple things that we want to talk about. We talked about oils being organic, also important, you know. The standards of organic are really important. The more we buy organic, the more demand there is, the more people will make organic foods.
Wendy 23:03
And we’re going back to our roots the way of original farming. . .
Debbie 23:09
But one thing to also remember about oils is if they smoke, remember that when you’re cooking, if any oils smoke, throw it out.
Wendy 23:17
Start over.
Debbie 23:18
Right, it starts developing carcinogenic properties–the last thing we need in this world is more cancer causing things right? So, if your oil smokes, you left it on the stove a little bit too long, or your heat was a little bit too high–if it smokes, sorry, you wasted it, but you have to throw it away.
Wendy 23:35
Yeah. So, I know you make ghee all the time. I’ve only made it a couple of times. And I just got this wonderful new pot from my dad so he can make ghee. So, I’m really looking forward to making it with him. But you make it all the time.
Debbie 23:47
I do. And, it’s in our cookbook, so you can make it too.
Wendy 23:50
That’s right, the recipe is in our cookbook.
Debbie 23:52
But, you can buy it. So, if you don’t want to make it you can buy it too. It’s just expensive. So, ghee is so healthy. It supports reduced gut inflammation, and it helps us absorb vitamin A. Being organic and grass finished, it has wonderful omega 3s.
Wendy 24:12
Which we just, we don’t get as many omega 3s. We get a lot of omega 6s but not as many omega 3s.
Debbie 24:20
That’s right. So, we need that. So yeah, and it’s also one of those oils that you can cook at a high heat. So yeah, it’s a good one to have. And given all of that, we were talking about fat and like we said before, we don’t want you to just think about fat, protein, sugars, you know. We need you to look at the whole picture, right? You know, we wanted to address this in this podcast. We want to address fat because people have questions about it. But it’s not just about fat. It’s about the whole picture.
Wendy 24:52
And so often when people take fat out, they’re eating–they ultimately are hungrier and they eat more sugar. By default, and it’s just sneaks in over time. And so, you may be having too many calories because you’ve cut out fat.
Debbie 25:10
Yep. That’s right.
Wendy 25:13
And, and don’t forget, it tastes really good. It really enhances the flavor of all those vegetables on your plate. Yeah. So, it’s just the yum factor, the pleasure of food, you know, we don’t want you to be afraid of that.
Debbie 25:27
That’s right. I have just one little story about that idea that recently. I was eating yogurt at home, and I finished my yogurt. And I was still kind of hungry when normally I’m not. It’s usually part of my breakfast. And it’s one of the last things I eat and I often feel great after that, but this day, I was still hungry. And I’m thinking, “why am I still hungry?” Was I really active yesterday? I was thinking about everything in my life. And then I looked at the yogurt container. And I realized, by accident, I bought a low-fat yogurt. It was an accident. It might have been in the same, you know, pile as the the whole-fat yogurts that I usually buy–the whole milk yogurt, and it was by accident. And that’s why it didn’t taste that great, either. But I thought, oh, maybe it was what I ate before. And it wasn’t. It didn’t satiate me. And it’s because it was a low-fat yogurt, which I don’t ever buy. So, it’s a big difference. It makes a difference. Try that whole-milk yogurt. If you haven’t already, it’s so much better.
Wendy 26:27
And you throw some berries on top of that and add some nuts and cacao nibs or something. I mean, it’s a wonderful meal. So, we love this idea of eating less, moving more, eating lots of fruits and vegetables. This really is the bottom line. And this is something from another one of the folks who we follow–Marion Nestle. She’s a professor of nutrition food studies and public health at New York University. And she’s also a professor of sociology at NYU and visiting professor of nutritional science at Cornell University. Fabulous, and really good for the nutrition industry. But, you know, those keys haven’t changed, right? You know, that that key philosophy hasn’t changed over time.
Debbie 27:18
Right. Just eat less, move more, eat lots of fruits and vegetables. How simple is that?
Wendy 27:22
Love it!
Debbie 27:23
Right?
Wendy 27:24
Thank you, Marian.
Debbie 27:25
That’s right. And she talks about that because there’s all these dietary guidelines that tell us what to eat and how much of it to eat and all that. But they also tend to deal with single nutrients or foods and not patterns and not like overall what we’re eating, or what we’re doing or how we’re living.
Wendy 27:43
And that’s reductionist philosophy, and we want to get out of that. We want to look at the whole person, the whole plate the whole week, the whole month, what’s going on in your life.
Debbie 27:54
You can’t ignore all that stuff. No, that’s our Five Foundations.
Wendy 27:57
That’s right. We’d love for you to listen to that one. Yes, that’s one of our most popular podcasts, actually.
Debbie 28:04
Yeah, it is. Yeah, we’ve got lots of shares on that. So, listen to that and share it.
Wendy 28:08
Yeah, so if this sparked your curiosity, if you found value in this, please like us and rate us wherever you listen to your podcast. We really appreciate you sharing this with friends and family and staying connected in social media. And if you want to sign up for our newsletter, head over to NourishCoaches.com and get signed up for that.
Debbie 28:30
Eat your fat.
Wendy 28:32
Eat fat.
